Apologies in advance, this entry's going to be somewhat, well, "meta", as the kids say. In other words, internally and culturally self-referential, picking up several threads and assuming that you already know what's going on. I'll put up some background soon.
In a recent Skepticality podcast (by the time of this writing, it's no longer the latest), Swoopy spoke with Maria Maltseva, a Seattle-based skeptic and lawyer who decided, following a challenge issued by previous visitors to the Discovery Institute's Centre for Science and Culture, arranged her own visit to the Evil Empire TM.
The interview gave us a lot of food for thought - much to chew over, as it were. Ms Maltseva takes great pains to stress both her skeptical and pro-evolutionary credentials, and the fact that she was able, without subterfuge or deception, to gain entry to and meeting time with members of the Discovery Institute's CSC staff. I don't have any reason to believe that Ms Maltseva was in fact a mole working under deep cover for the Disco, but something about this interview just didn't sound right to me. I'll try to explain.
I'll start by saying that no, I've never been to Seattle to try to cadge a visit... not yet, anyway. So I don't have personal experience to compare with Ms Maltseva's description of her visit. And there were some fascinating revelations to be had, certainly.
The revelation of the existence of "secret laboratories", of which there are apparently two in the Seattle area, in which CSC scientists are attempting to build proof for intelligent design was cause for some mirth. I suspect that the reason why they don't let anybody in is because anyone who understands laboratory apparatus would take a few minutes, look around, and then start asking some very awkward questions. In my mind, these laboratories look like something out of the old Ealing comedy classic, The Man in the White Suit, starring a young Alec Guinness. It would be a cinematic take on what a laboratory is supposed to look like. It would be neither functional nor real. That's just a guess, of course.
The revelation of the existence of "secret laboratories", of which there are apparently two in the Seattle area, in which CSC scientists are attempting to build proof for intelligent design was cause for some mirth. I suspect that the reason why they don't let anybody in is because anyone who understands laboratory apparatus would take a few minutes, look around, and then start asking some very awkward questions. In my mind, these laboratories look like something out of the old Ealing comedy classic, The Man in the White Suit, starring a young Alec Guinness. It would be a cinematic take on what a laboratory is supposed to look like. It would be neither functional nor real. That's just a guess, of course.Also of interest was that we were reminded of the fact that the so-called Centre for Science and Culture is but one part of the Discovery Institute's policy thrust. Another is the Traffic wing, which, apparently, has received funding from the Gates Foundation to sort out the nightmare of Seattle's antiquated roadways and infrastructure. To some, the patronage of this notably liberal charity is at odds with the Disco's image as a bastion of nouveau Evangelical conservative fundamentalist lackeydom. But perhaps it just speaks to desperation not to spend pointless hours trying to get home?
Perhaps the most astounding statement came at the end, when Ms Maltseva discussed a group audition that she arranged, where she, Luskin, Smith, and Carruthers listened to the earlier edition of Skepticality on which Kate Holden and Tiana Dietz appeared.
Here are the things that were unbelievable about Ms Maltseva's reporting of that audition:
- The claim that the people of the Disco had never heard the podcast before. This is, on the face of it, blindingly ridiculous. Whatever else the Disco are, they are media-saavy and technologically aware. It does not take a lot of effort to set up a Google search. I refuse to believe that they had not heard this.
- The claim that the people of the Disco laughed good-naturedly at the recording. This speaks, to me, of stage management. History is littered with examples of inhuman monsters who could laugh good-naturedly, even at their own expense. It doesn't mean that they weren't seething and plotting your ugly demise on the inside.
- The claim that, upon hearing the venom with which the comtempt for the Discovery's CSC was expressed, they were moved to tears. Again, this speaks to me of stage management. It does so for the simple and obvious reason that if you are an organisation which has to undermine your opposition, wouldn't you do it by trying to appear more cuddly and vulnerable than you genuinely were?
Consider, for a moment, how things might have looked from the other side. Ms Maltseva gets off of the phone, having arranged her visit. What, if you want to make sure that you are in full damage control mode, would be the first thing that you would do? Well, I don't know about you, dear readers, as I'm sure that you are all unique and splendidly eccentric individuals in your own right, but I'll tell you what I would bloody well do: research.
And, on doing some research, you would read Ms Malkova's blog, and you might possibly class her as something of a sentimentalist. Not a bad thing, in and of itself, but which, in turn, would help you to figure out how to deflect some of the damaging criticisms that might be brought against you. Again, I'm playing the role of a devil's advocate here, assuming that, despite their public posture, the Disco is no more to be trusted than a Bush administration official extolling the virtues of privatising your own hurrican relief.
Are the denizens of the Disco human beings? Well, yes, of course, as far as we are aware, they must be. It seems unlikely that they are really an advance force of the armies of the planet Zog, or any other such improbable thing. But the more important question is this: are they capable of taking in the gullible? The answer to that question, we need only look at the roster of people who support them and their aims. We need only read their fund-raising materials. We need only listen to those who are secondarily and tertiarily taken in by their sophistry.
Those who work for the Centre for Science and Culture of the Discovery Institute, or whatever else they may wish to call themselves, are not people for whom intellectual dishonesty is a problem. This has been repeatedly demonstrated: by their behaviour with regard to the film Expelled and their wildly dissimilar reaction to Randy Olson's requests for interviews for A Flock of Dodos, to name just two examples. And it is for that reason, more than any other, that I do not feel that finding "common ground" with people and groups who hold a world view that is 180 degrees away from mine is either practical or possible. It may well be fine for some, and each and every one of you must make that choice for yourselves. I won't tell you what to do, I won't presuppose your acceptance of my view. You must make your own decisions for yourself. To think otherwise would be of a wrongness and an arrogance on my part that... well, it would smack of Disco-think. And it is neither my purpose nor my wish to make gains by adopting the dishonourable tactics of the opposition. That's the definition, I think, of a Pyrrhic victory.
So, at the end, I have to think that for whatever reason, Ms Maltseva drank too deeply of the Disco's hospitality. I was immediately suspicious of her descriptions of the people there, and their reactions to the earlier podcast where Tiana and Kate Holden called for the removal of the Disco. It was all a bit too neat. I think that she was carefully managed, spun, and wagged from start to finish. I don't say that this is her fault, or even that her effort was not a noble and valuable one.
It's just that, listening not to my irrational dislikes, nor to my desire to think the best of people, but rather by looking at the facts, I come to the conclusion that I just don't believe that reaching an accommodation with people who cannot be trusted to tell the truth serves any greater goal.
6 comments:
Hello, this is bluharmony responding to your blog entry (Maria Maltseva). I would like to clear up a point or two. The DI made it perfectly clear that they read both my blog and my facebook page before I came. And it did appear that they hadn't heard the earlier podcast, because they were all distressed by its length, since they had other commitments. Plus, they were listening to it at my request, because I wanted to ask questions about specific points, and they didn't know the answers. When I entered the institute, I demanded milk and cookies, and they ran around looking for food. They had no clue that I was referring to something said in the past podcast. There were other incidents like that as well. I'm fully aware that their reactions could have been staged, but I have reason to believe they were not. For instance, Anika talked about me to her facebook friends BEFORE I ever had access to her facebook page. She simply said I was the "nicest atheist ever" and "we agreed to disagree." And Casey Luskin, as I said in the podcast, had no reaction at all. So where does that leave us? Nowhere, really. But we did clear up the misconceptions that were presented in the first podcast.
To continue on my previous ramble, I went in with the expectation that I would be treated like royalty, and that I should be watching for staged reactions, but in the end, I didn't get anything that I came for.
I didn't get to see the labs, and I didn't get to speak with the leaders of the organization, such as Chapman.
As for the labs, they've been visited before, and some information about them exists on the web. I did hours of research before going into the Institute itself, so that I could compare their reactions and statements to the information I gathered from other sources.
Basically, all the information I brought back from my visit from my visit was already available on the web for someone willing to do the work. My purpose was only to compare and contrast, and look for additional deception. As an attorney, that is my job.
I may be sentimental, but I am not as easily deceived as you may think.
"...they were moved to tears."
I have to believe that's knee-deep bullshit. Staged, or perhaps something in the air conditioning system. Luskin in particular knows the contempt in which he's held, and has known it for years. Tears? Crocodile tears, maybe.
And Ms. Maltseva wrote
My purpose was only to compare and contrast, and look for additional deception. As an attorney, that is my job.
I know a lot of attorneys and cops (35 years in emergency services). Some can 'detect' deception, some can't. The mere fact of being an attorney tells one precisely nothing about that ability.
RBH... I have to sadly confirm that I couldn't agree with you more with regard to the show of tears... "Sadly" only because it would be good, in an ideal world, if we could all sit down and sort things out like rational, sensible human beings, and not resort to manipulative and devious tricks. As is continually driven home to me, however, we do not live in an ideal world.
I've tried email Ms Maltseva in response to her posts, but the email addresses come back as failed, so I'll post the substance of my response to her next, and apologise now if her email really was working and she didn't have adequate time to look over what I said in the interests of fairness and clarity, as I initially offered.
Ms Maltseva,
I appreciate your having taken the time to reply to my post.
First, I'd like to again emphasise that your effort was laudable and valuable, if perhaps not for the reason that you might at first suspect. But I think that everyone in the skeptical world is right to say that what you have done is a very important step in understanding exactly the nature of the Discovery Institute's Centre for Science and Culture.
However, that being said (and you *knew* that there was a "however" coming), I still have several reservations.
If I'm working solely with my skeptic's hat on (and a very fetching derby it is, too), then I must say that I will always be skeptical of the DI's CSC, for many of the reasons that I mentioned in my original post. I will not blithely accept that - the niceness or charm or human warmth of the lower functionaries notwithstanding - this is a group of people who are interested in an open, honest discussion of the so-called "differences" between an understanding of evolutionary biology and the promulgation of so-called ID theory.
You may recall, if you read back into the archives a bit, that I wrote a bit about the DI's CSC December fund-raising letter. To my mind, this is a key example of the mendacity which they routinely practise. Maybe not as human beings, or individuals, but on an institutional scale. And it is the institution, and its actions, which concerns me far more than the individual character or foibles of its members.
In re-reading my original post, I may have given the impression that I thought you gullible, and that must be read as an error of haste in the original composition. Is it gullible to have been taken in by an organisation which has thrived on the mastery of the arts of rhetorical trickery? As we continue to learn, for example, if that is the case, then many Americans have been extremely politically gullible in the last eight years. It is not gullibility if you do not have all the information - it is spin control.
I would pose a further semi-rhetorical question: were Randy Olson to make "A Flock of Dodos" now, today, and ask the DI's CSC for access and interviews, how do you think that he would be treated? Would he be granted access to the super-secret laboratories? You'll have noticed that in my post I referenced Alec Guinness in "The Man in the White Suit". I chose that reference very deliberately. If you will recall the film - and it's a delightful piece of cinema which I heartily recommend if you have not seen it - Guinness' character develops a fibre and a fabric which will essentially put the textile industry out of business due to its versatility and durability. However, in the end, he finds that the material is unstable, and his own suit made of the material disintegrates quite literally off his back. I think that this is a good metaphor for what the DI's CSC has in store for them.
Once again, my perspective is based upon my reading of the DI's CSC's materials, listening to their podcasts, following their exploits, and second-hand reports of their actions. I have met ID proponents in my travels, but as yet none of those that are associated with the DI. That opportunity will probably come at some point, and I may revise my opinion then.
However, based upon what I know now, and what I suspect to be true of them (ie; that they really do, as the Wedge Document says, want to bring an end to methodological naturalism), then there is nothing to discuss with them. These are the same arguments, case in much the same light, which were first propounded fifty years ago when Morris and Whitcomb wrote "The Genesis Flood", only with a slightly greater degree of sophistication, and a bit less of the deity and "bible is the literal truth" tack. I wouldn't call a dialogue with them to be equivalent to the "Neville Chamberlain School of Skepticism and Science" without my tongue planted firmly in cheek, but I would urge anyone who feels that there is a need for an ongoing dialogue with the DI's CSC and its affiliates to answer this question: why?
Because if the answer is "to strength the science through dialogue with adversaries", then we all know that science doesn't grow in this way. This sort of legitimisation of the DI and their approach only strengthens their hand - and weakens ours. It gives them the "oxygen of publicity", which doesn't do much good when you're trying to fight a fire.
If anyone wishes to discuss this further, please feel free to email me at bluharmony@gmail.com.
@RBH -- if you listened to my podcast, you would realize that I never said "They were moved to tears." In fact, all three of the employees had very different reactions. Casey Luskin said he was used to it and had no reaction at all.
@William -- you are correct in everything you say. The point of my podcast was not so support what the DI was doing in terms of ID research, put to point out the many errors made in the previous show. The other thing I wanted to emphasize is that legally, the DI doesn't pose much of a threat given recent legal decisions. And finally, I wanted to point out that when we are using deception and lies, our behavior is no better than theirs. (It is also noteworthy, as you pointed out, that though an institution may have ignoble goals, that doesn't necessarily mean that every single individual working there shares them, especially in today's economy.)
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